Man thought he could reason,
This was so because of enlightenment,
He fought,
And he fought well,
This was necessary,
For feudalism was at sea,
Hitting and crushing all in its way,
No where to go men had to bear,
Farmers, blacksmiths, traders and owners,
Rose to battle and cry,
Liberty for all,
Equality for all,
Reason and rationale,
Would be the light,
From and for enlightenment,
Man would thus decide,
What then the boy would ask,
For this would not be enough,
Reason for we,
Could do more for me,
Break the state,
From its evil,
Religion of men,
Must be severed,
Bring forth the nation state,
For it was the child,
And reason endeavour,
Would be its mother,
Promises of hope,
Hope of wealth,
Logic of rationale,
Would be our dare,
Myth and emotion,
We left bare,
Experience and limitation,
We will not care,
The boy would not believe,
The tragedy to come,
For hope only led to absurdity,
And angst too many……
Diskopi 
men an are not only without reason but also irrational. rationalism as a promised expound by modernity in todays world is merely an empty slogan without any real concrete advancement in humanity, equality, liberty and fraternity for human world.
poverty is still rampant, inequality between north and south is getting bigger, the gap between rich and poor is further divided in local level as well as in global level and millions of people in this world is still living under USD1.00 per day!
not to mention the on going environmental destruction, global warming and various vicious wars in iraq, afghanistan, mindanao, southern thailand, somalia, sudan, chechnya, sri lanka and in many other places that have devastated not only human life but also humanity as well. man is indeed irrational.
who needs rationalism and reason in the world system that privileged individualism, consumerism and materialism?
“Rationalists are admirable beings, but rationalism is a hideous monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of a stick and stone believing it to be God.” — Gandhi
The first experiment of rationalist philosophy is the French Revolution (1789), contrasted with the American Revolution (1775) which followed the English tradition of Empiricism. The French Revolutionaries honored the power of reason, but what it’s led to? Edmund Burke, a sympathizer of American Revolution but skeptical of French Revolution, foreseen the result of the Revolution: Reign of Terror (1793-1795). Burke wrote “Reflections on the Revolution in France” (1790). Burke argued that the French Revolution would end disastrously, because its abstract foundations, purportedly rational, ignored the complexities of human nature and society.
So the French Revolution have setting the path for the Marxist-Leninist revolutions (you can see how much Marx defend the Revolution). Marxist owed intellectual debt to Rousseau, the intellectual father of French revolutionaries, believed that anything can be accumulated; everything can be planned, and denied the rights to liberty.
While we stressed too much of ‘reason’, we ignored the ‘spontaneous order’, or ‘invisible hands’. Human creativity and innovations were never the result of absolute rationalism, nor it was carry out by central planners. Can Marxist system invented Facebook? Can Marxist system invented Cisco System? Can central planners ever come out with an idea of ‘Youtube”? No. it was the power of market, power of individualism, and power of irrationalism.
Watch this, and try to think:
facebook? cisco system? youtube? great inventions. undeniably great inventions. thanks to capitalism, free market and individual liberty. while at the same time millions of people are still living in abject poverty under USD1.00 per day! another millions lost their life, brothers, sisters, daughters, sons, loved ones due to inequality produce by a system that we are living now.
and here we are gloating and boasting about the power of market, individualism, irrationalism, facebook, cisco and youtube. men have become so self-centred indeed! a total product of market forces!
kah! kah! kah! tahap propaganda paling menggelikan hati! youtube milton friedman cakap pasal macam mana pensel dikeluarkan! mamat milton friedman nilah yang bagi “shock theraphy” sebagai “ubat” menghapuskan kemiskinan untuk latin amerika akhirnya “ubat” mamat milton friedman ni telah merosak, memusnah dan mensengsarakan lagi rakyat di latin amerika. tak menghairankanlah kalo negara-negara latin amerika beralih kembali kepada sosialisme selepas menerima “ubat” dari mamat milton friedman ni.
apa yang mamat milton friedman tak cerita dalam proses pengeluaran pensil tu ialah berapa upah yang dia beri pada pekerja, berapa hektar alam sekitar dimusnahkan untuk menebang pokok-pokok kayu, berapa juta buruh-buruh dieksploitasi, berapa juta untung yang kapitalis kaut dan berapa ringgit yang pekerja dapat, berapa banyak negara yang dijajah, berapa ribu nyawa dah melayang buat kerja-kerja menebang pokok nih, berapa banyak buruh-buruh dari negara lain yang di bawak ke negara jajahan.
sepertimana yang milton friedman cakap dalam video propaganda tu, dapat jugak pokok getah dibawak tanam ke malaysia ni. dengan dapatnya pokok getah dibawak kat malaysia, dapat la jugak buruh-buruh tamil dari selatan india di bawak ke tanah melayu waktu tu untuk dieksploitasi dan dijadikan bonded slave!
terima kaseh jugaklah pada kuasa pasar, dapat jugak cato wong dan keturunan dia datang dan hidup di malaysia ni. kalo tidak mampus cato wong dan tok nenek dia maseh lagi terperap di bawah negara diktator komunis china!
kah! kah! kah! kah!
Ha! Well-said (Pandai je cakap!). So what is your solution to the global poverty? By central-planning Marxist-Leninist socialism? Come on! You’re not enough of Soviet Union, Mao’s China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, or you’re now interested in Kim’s North Korea? Capitalism is not perfect, but it’s more perfect than any other system! Why you view the world as a zero-sum trade-off?
Yes, billions of people suffered under the extreme poverty, but who’s offering the helping hands? Any government? Or any agencies under lame UN? No. Remember while you was a child you have to inject vaccines? Whose idea is it? It’s initiated by Rockefeller Foundation! Can you imagine how many lives could save through the funds of Gates Foundation? How many voluntaries carry out their aid to African nations under sponsorship of charitable trust?
Capitalism may look selfish, but you have to remember, capitalism will not work without ‘protestant ethics’, it’s an ethic requires voluntary spirit to aid the society, a force that encourage people to organize civil societies. What have you done to African children? You’re not even donate 1 single ringgit to them! But how many aid they’re received through western charitable concerts? How many plans to aid them through think tanks that organized by capitalists? Have you heard of what have Rockefeller and Carnegie contribute to our world?
Yes, I am thankful that market forces driven my grandfathers and grandmothers offshores, if not, how can I get so many friends of Malay, Indians, Punjabis, Kadazans etc ?
Those capitalists out there are contribute billions of dollars ever day to help improve this world, don’t label them hypocrite, “do good things by wrong reasons” are better than “do nothing by self-righteousness”, ask yourself, what have you done, or what have you planned to do, to help this world, stop being a cynic.
i found you guys arguing on which economic system is good and suitable..so,what’s the best system?
and..what’s the best system to extinguish global poverty??
Rockerfeller?
yeah..he’s damn rich man
but let me tell you that, he will never get enough.
he just want to control people all around the world with his power and influence..He and his allies want to establish one world governmet or NWO. so people will be enslaved one day.
today he introduces RFID chips injected to human body in America,soon Europe,middle region and Asia. through that chips our money,daily affair will be control and monitored. If we disobey them,they’ll just switch off the chip and our money account will be frozen. So don’t get fished easily when you see rich people make good deeds i.e. charities / trust..so beware.
Rockerfeller?
yeah..he’s damn rich man
but let me tell you that, he will never get enough.
he just want to control people all around the world with his power and influence..He and his allies want to establish one world governmet or NWO. so people will be enslaved one day.
today he introduces RFID chips injected to human body in America,soon Europe,middle region and Asia. through that chips our money,daily affair will be control and monitored. If we disobey them,they’ll just switch off the chip and our money account will be frozen. So don’t get fished easily when you see rich people make good deeds i.e. charities / trust..so beware.
video youtube yang cato wong kasi memang sangat simplistik! propaganda 3 minit yang cukup menghiburkan! sesuai untuk orang yang malas berfikir dan tidak berfikiran kritikal. tapi kalau orang tu berfikiran kritikal, propaganda murahan 3 minit macam tu, takkan termakan.
video propaganda liberal yang cuba untuk mempengaruhi kita supaya menerima seadanya sistem yang sedia ada ini. terimalah sistem kapitalis yang sedia ada ini dan janganlah melawan sistem kapitalis ini kerana sistem kapitalis ini telah banyak membantu mereka yang miskin.
cato wong mungkin tak pernah menjejak kaki ke estet-estet di malaysia untuk melihat sendiri bagaimana buruh-buruh tamil dan asing dieksploitasi oleh kapitalis. cato wong mungkin tidak pernah ke kilang-kilang dan menanyakan bagaimana kehidupan pekerja-pekerja kilang ini.
nanti kalau ada program mahasiswa turun ke estet, diharapkan cato wong dapat join sekali untuk melihat nasib buruh-buruh tamil dan buruh asing di estet-estet yang dimiliki oleh kapitalis-kapitalis besar ini. kami akan buat program turun ke akar umbi di cuti semester nanti. harap cato wong akan dapat join sekali.
yes it is undeniable that rockefellar foundation and various other foundation particularly americans had contributed it shares in poverty alleviation programs but it is also undeniable that some of these foundations particularly american foundations (in particular ford foundation) is also a front cover for CIA especially in latin america and other 3rd world countries during 1960s and 1970s cold war era.
just google on some of this foundation and its connection with CIA, u will have a long list of website, articles some were written by established academicians exposing the link betwen this foundations and CIA covert operation.
and there is also many many books that have been written about the connection between CIA and some of these foundations, who paid the piper is one of such books that i myself have read.
but one of the books that is really an eye opener for me to understand the politics of grants, funding, usaids and cold war is a book by john perkins – confessions of an economic hit man: how the U.S. uses globalization to cheat poor countries out of trillions
this is one of the things that those who supported the right wing policy will hide from us all. the politics of foundation, fundings and grants and its purposed in subverting the popular movements against capitalism especially during the cold war eras.
Ramesh..don’t you think that one day, the whole entire human made economic doctrines will collapse? Capitalist system is not excluded.
HKK — there is no “best” system, but capitalist system is far more better than Marxist system, and I’m now very interested in Islamic system and I still research on it…
Wongong / Wongtauke — Hey, don’t think I never heard of New World Order conspiracy, man ! Not only that, do you know they even established Council of Foreign Relations, President Roosevelt is “sengaja” get US into World War II, that both Communism & Capitalism was invented by Jews to control the world, they created UN for an one-world government… blah blah. But do you where this “blah blah” come from? NWO theory was first introduced by John Birch Society, an extreme right-wing organization, and made popular by Pat Robertson, an extreme conservative TV host in his book “The New World Order” (1991), both of JBS & Robertson are Republican, they are die-hard capitalist, their enemies are Democrat, a party that seek to maximize public welfare. Do you notice the difference between Republican & Democrat? Republican is pro-capitalist, anti-UN, and favor NWO; while Democrat is pro-workers, pro-UN, and be accused as part of NWO, you are now use a capitalists’ points to rebutt my (me, a capitalist) points? Haha, next time read carefully…
Ramesh — Tolong, jangan gambarkan kapitalis sebagai orang yang “born with silver spoon” yang tak ambil tahu kesengsaraan orang susah, nampaknya anda tak tahu “kapitalisme” apa yang saya nak sampaikan. “Kapitalisme” di Malaysia ialah “crony capitalism”, ia berbeza dengan “free market capitalism” yang amal di US, yang didukung oleh Republican, yang penyokongnya majoriti daripada golongan petani di wilayah Midwest. Dan petani inilah pemilik tanah dan estet. Petani memiliki tanah? Tak pernah bayangkan?
Saya faham betapa susahnya golongan kurang privilege, jangan anggap saya pekak dan buta. Libertarian perjuangkan capitalism bukan untuk orang kaya, tapi untuk orang susah ! Cuba anda perhatikan penyokong Republikan semua berasal daripada Midwest dan South Central yang memang terdiri orang kampung manakala penyokong Demokrat semua daripada New England dan Pacific yang merupakan tumpuan golongan elit dan kelompok tauke yang tersenarai dalam Forbes 400.
Cara yang terbaik untuk membantu orang susah seperti abang-abang Tamil di estet bukannya menjadikan mereka daripada buruh swasta kepada buruh kerajaan seperti idea Marxist, tetapi beri mereka sokongan modal untuk “self-empowerment”supaya mereka dapat meningkatkan status sosioekonomi mereka dengan memiliki perniagaan sendiri, ramai NGO di Malaysia sudah memulai usaha idea “microfinance” untuk membantu golongan sebegini. Microfinance merupakan program yang dimula oleh Dr. Muhammad Yunus di Bangladesh yang berjaya membantu ramai golongan wanita yang tiada kedudukan sosioekonomi di Bangladesh untuk memulakan perniagaan sendiri. Saya harap Ramesh dan mahasiswa lain boleh pertimbangkan pendekatan ini untuk menolong mereka.
Ramesh, how do you think? Do you want those Tamil workers “change” from private workers to public workers, so their sons and daughters become government-trained workers but still workers; or grant them capital, empower them to suceed through market forces, from worker become business owner, so their sons and daughters might received better education, so they can break away from being socioeconomic underdog?
Darren — I have read Perkin’s book, don’t think I’m ignorant, it’s not enough to shake my capitalist belief, why? Read this carefully (please… really READ it…)
Perkins likes to invoke Indonesia, the scene of his first hit-man assignment. The way he tells it, the development economists who persuaded Indonesia to borrow money around 1970 were peddling a ludicrous idea — that Indonesia’s economy could spring from the dark age to the modern age in a mere generation. Well, Indonesia’s infant mortality and adult illiteracy rates each fell by two-thirds over the next three decades, and life expectancy shot up by 19 years. If the corporatocracy was trying to lay Indonesia low, this was a funny way of doing it.
The same point holds for the developing world generally. The adult illiteracy rate in the poor world was halved between 1970 and 2000, and since 1980 the number of people living on less than $1 a day has fallen by about 200 million, even as the world’s population has expanded rapidly. That is a stunning achievement given that the ranks of the poor had previously been swelling steadily, at least since 1820.
The poor have made these gains because Perkins’s second contention is equally wrong: The corporatocracy is neither evil nor omnipotent. Survey after survey has shown that the multinational companies vilified by Perkins pay better wages than their local rivals in poor countries: One study of 20,000 Indonesian manufacturing plants found that the average pay in foreign-owned factories was 50 percent higher than in local ones — and also that foreign competition pushed local wages upward. As Martin Wolf remarks in his book, “Why Globalization Works,” multinational firms induce a race to the top more than a race to the bottom.
Perkins likes to say that of the world’s 100 biggest economies, 51 are companies. This old chestnut is based on a fallacious comparison of companies’ sales to countries’ gross domestic product: Whereas GDP measures the amount of value added in an economy, sales lump together a firm’s value-added with inputs bought in from suppliers. According to an apples-to-apples comparison done by the United Nations, just two of the world’s top 50 economies were companies in the year 2000. Of the top 100 economies, 29 were companies.
That may still sound like a lot, but remember that companies compete against each other. In the world as Perkins dreams it, the top 100 or so firms are joined in a shadowy conspiracy. But the reality is that Exxon Mobil schemes to undermine BP and Shell, and General Electric plots against Siemens and Hitachi. Countries don’t face a united corporatocracy. They play firms off against each other.
Besides, power is not the same as sales figures. Governments force citizens to pay taxes; firms can’t force customers to do anything. Governments put citizens behind bars; citizens can use consumer power to put companies out of business. Governments have a monopoly on the right to impose laws, including laws that constrain corporate behavior; the fact that firms spend vast sums on lobbying is proof not only of their strength but also of their vulnerability. Of course, sometimes the lobbyists succeed. But over the past couple of decades, the scope of environmental, health and safety laws has generally expanded.
cato wong.
they just at the same side..
you must get out from injecting your thoughts with further doctrines..Go and find GOD
whatever rebuttals or arguments given in support of capitalism, free market and liberalism there will also thousands other rebuttals and arguments against capitalism, free market and liberalism. confessions of an economic hitman is just one of thousands other books that have been produced based on empirical evidences by researchers and academics against capitalism, free market and liberalism.
i’m sorry the way i see the world that we are heading now your arguments does not convince me.
Darren — Hey, no need to feel sorry, just stay on the way you are — you know, true liberalism is very tolerant of different views and freedom to choose, unlike Socialism… 🙂
sorry again cato. i’m not for socialism either. i’m for social democrat in the mould of scandinavian country, free healthcare, free education, state own transportation system, workers rights, womens rights, children rights, humane minimum wages for the workers, dole for unemployed, ombudsmen, strong trade unions, no huge gap between the upper, middle n lower strata of the society, small gap between rich and poor, and all other civil and political freedoms acord to its citizen including the migrant.
I also sorry again, Darren — I’m not here to argue but want to point out how the liberals (libertarian is a more accurate word) measure the economic and social well-being, how it differ with social democrats, which will be called Democrats in US.
Social democracy is no doubt a Marxist ideology, it’s actually origin from the moderate wing of the First International — its intellectual father is Engels, although the name ‘Engels’ always related to Marx like they’re twins, but Engels disagreed with Marx over whether should use force to overthrow the bourgeoisie establishment…
Ok ok… left out those history… why libertarian think social democracy is not work either even it’s look more humane than its diabolic brother — socialism?
To provide free healthcare, free education, and state-owned transportation, you need money. You need capital to cover those huge amount of costs. Where the money came from? Government cannot generate profit itself, so people need to pay higher taxes. To fund the government, you need progressive taxation, that mean if you earn more, you pay more. So the biggest contributors to public infrastructure is still the capitalists. And if a capitalist want to pay more, he must earn more; if he wants to earn more, he must need a free economy. But the dilemma is, you want those business owners to pay more, but you make them hard to earn cashes. That’s the problem.
Strong trade unions will kill an economy, and it will shed your competency. The best example is General Motors Corp, once the world’s largest manufacturer of cars, now in the edge of bankruptcy. You know, thanks to the “strongest” trade union in the US — United Automobile Workers, GM cannot say no to the demands by UAW over the past decade; by including their healthcare and allowance benfit, an average plant worker at GM factory in downtown Detroit, earned their annual income more than Warren Buffett, the world’s richest man ! (Buffett only have a $100,000 annual salary) By such burden, GM is facing years and years of losses, now it might become a noun in history book.
Talk about freedom, freedom to across the borders, capitalists is the vanguard of welcoming imigrant, you talk about Scandivinia, you might aware that Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway have a very strict imigration policy. The national welfare system will collapse when a free society emerged, that’s why you search throughout of history, you will find that the most successful welfare state ever is Nazi Germany. A not-so-successful example is France, not only facing stagnating economy, but also facing gradual social disintegration.
Minimum wage is a non-issue. Anyone with basic economic knowledge must know minimum wage will immediately cause unemployment, it’s an iron law. How minimum is minimum? Do you know there are so many business owners, are receiving less than a dollar for a day? They’re only get paid $1 for a year, with no stocks and options granted, Sergey Brin, Larry Page, Eric Schmidt, Steve Jobs are just some of them… so do they need minimum wage? If not, why?
It have to be back to the old saying — public welfare need restriction of market, restriction of market need a planning economy, a planning economy need a strong government, a strong government required citizens to give up their maximum liberty, and by giving up liberty, you know what will happen…
obviously the way we look at it is different. its alrite to be different but empirically those welfare state in the mould of scandinavian country for me is far more humane than living in a capitalist world that we are living now. and u dont have to give up liberty in scandinavian country. they are among of the most free country in the world wth minimum corruption, really small case of poverty incidence, high human development index, free media, sexually liberated and provide social security for its citizens. the purpose of my life not to make money. the purposed of my life is to have a good time in this short life in this earth. and scandinavian country seems a good model to me. i’m sorry too that we do not have any agreement here….but since both of us are democrats, of course we wont force our ideas to others. 🙂